SV/KV discussion and anything else that needs talking about !!!

[TheCoder]

Ok, as the other interesting thread has been closed for being off topic (I agree, it was way off the original topic) I thought i'd create a new thread to continue the debate.

[clio1]

Blinkered

Originally Posted by clio1
Funny you should say that coder, he was the same when i told him when Sv6 came out it was a 12mth sub, but i suppose if he wants to keep the blinkers on that is his choice really.

Originally Posted by TheCoder
lol, since when does anybody believe forum rumours !

Thats what you are calling it horses mouth by Mr Wiz himself

[TheCoder]

Originally Posted by lincsat

Of course there is a difference between a for-profit and a not for profit server,

I'm glad you finally agree !

do you not read what I write or make it up as you go along.

Of course I read it but I am starting to wonder if you actually read what you yourself type. Some of it seems like 'random' and i'll thought out raving rather than logical discussion.

The end user still pays for access whether in cash or kind, so they are both Pay servers and not free servers.

Of course nothing in life is free (even death is taxed) so the word 'free' is meaningless in any literal context. I suspect the majority of people though have an idea of the conceptual differences and would be quite comfortable with my definition of a 'free' server.

There are some free servers around but they don't seem to last for long

By your definition, how can there be ?

The crux of your argument is that nothing in life is free and everything must be paid for so how do we suddenly get 'free' servers. Surely the subscriptions still have to be paid for regardless.

You seem to be trying to compare the Kryptview servers with a not for profit "Exchange" server.

Yes and no, there are some parallels but also some differences. If you check out how the KV system functions then its effectively divorced from the business of selling boxes (obviously one couldn't exist without the other but its a symbiosis relationship). If you do some digging i'm sure you can suss the way its run.

I don't have any figures but based on my experience of KV outselling SV better than 25:1 and the rumored sales of 25,000 SV6/7 boxes, that would suggest that KV have made 10's of millions from the sale of boxes - not a bad community profit

I really cant see where you've got those figures except to invent them off the top of your head. Its patently obvious there are NOT 625,000 KV boxes out there. I'd guess that, at best, they may have a similar user base to that you've quoted for SV. 20-25,000 boxes maybe if your lucky

Seriously, 625,000 would be 1/7th of VM's total customer base. If the problem really was that bad (or anything like it) countermeasure would already of occured big time !!!

[lincsat]

Originally Posted by TheCoder

I'm glad you finally agree !

I've said right from the start that for profit and not for profit are different, one makes a profit and one doesn't but the end user still has to pay either in cash or in kind.

The crux of your argument is that nothing in life is free and everything must be paid for so how do we suddenly get 'free' servers. Surely the subscriptions still have to be paid for regardless.

Free servers do not require the end user to pay in cash or kind. I'm sure that many people will have experienced or heard of a Free server and I'm sure people will know the difference between a "Pay" server and an "Exchange" server and accept that they do not get access to an "Exchange" server without contributing and that the contribution is not Free.

Yes and no, there are some parallels but also some differences. If you check out how the KV system functions then its effectively divorced from the business of selling boxes (obviously one couldn't exist without the other but its a symbiosis relationship). If you do some digging i'm sure you can suss the way its run.

If KV want to hand out CLines or NLines for free to people with Linux or other boxes, then they could call it a free server. Are you seriously trying to say that the server side does not see any of the profit from box sales?

I really cant see where you've got those figures except to invent them off the top of your head. Its patently obvious there are NOT 625,000 KV boxes out there. I'd guess that, at best, they may have a similar user base to that you've quoted for SV. 20-25,000 boxes maybe if your lucky

Seriously, 625,000 would be 1/7th of VM's total customer base. If the problem really was that bad (or anything like it) countermeasure would already of occured big time !!!

You're not reading again are you!

It's been claimed that SV had sold over 25,000 boxes and have 17,000 in storage. I stated that is a rumor. In my experience Kryptview have outsold Starview 25:1, a couple of other independent dealers have reported similar. As stated, I have no idea of national figures or what SV only or KV only dealers have sold.

I suspect that the claimed Starview figures are gross over-estimations by KV supporters with their claims that "Starview only re-launched their server to sell 17,000 boxes they have in stock then they will close it". The figure of 44,000 has also been branded around, I posted when that first appeared that it sounded very high.

I don't know the profit margin on a KV box, but I do know that similarly specifiable Freeview (DTT) boxes are on sale for around £15-£20 retail, so you can estimate the margin for the middle-men and estimate what the profit is. The only figure that I know for fact is the difference I paid between the last A750 before N3 and the A780 post N3.

However many boxes have actually been sold, there has been a considerable amount of cash made, so please don't try and tell me that Kryptview is run by a Philanthropic organization - they are a business just like Starview and they are both in it for the money and given the box prices, I suspect that KV have made a lot more than SV.

[TheCoder]

Originally Posted by lincsat

You're not reading again are you!

It's been claimed that SV had sold over 25,000 boxes and have 17,000 in storage. I stated that is a rumor. In my experience Kryptview have outsold Starview 25:1, a couple of other independent dealers have reported similar. As stated, I have no idea of national figures or what SV only or KV only dealers have sold.

I guess I can claim the moon is made out of green cheese then because that would make as much sense as the above jibberish !

SV, 30,000 boxes seems about right.
KV, 25,000 boxes seems about right

The 25:1 is just idiocy. Take my above numbers as being approximately correct give or take 20% from each. SV was marginally more popular due to its original purchase price being lower.

If you really want to check things out then look at the server networks involved. Its not difficult to work out the approximate limitations of each network and therefore the upper possibilites for clients. You'll likely find that neither network will handle much (if anything) beyond 50,000-60,000 clients in their present states.

I suspect that the claimed Starview figures are gross over-estimations by KV supporters with their claims that "Starview only re-launched their server to sell 17,000 boxes they have in stock then they will close it". The figure of 44,000 has also been branded around, I posted when that first appeared that it sounded very high.

I'm sure initially the server restart was to sell the 17,000 boxes. I'm also guessing that strategy has now been re-thought as it would be pointless for them to start a payserver system otherwise. The flog-it and scarper scenario only made sense when the server was 'free' !

I'm in agreement, 44,000 units seems high. At 25:1 that would mean there is 1,100,000 KV's out there which i'm sure you agree, a joke !

Again, not sure where you aquired your figures but a more correct ratio would be around 1.2 SV's for every KV.

I don't know the profit margin on a KV box, but I do know that similarly specifiable Freeview (DTT) boxes are on sale for around £15-£20 retail, so you can estimate the margin for the middle-men and estimate what the profit is. The only figure that I know for fact is the difference I paid between the last A750 before N3 and the A780 post N3.

Its difficult to compare DTT boxes (or even Sat) with Cable boxes. Although they contain many of the same components (basically only the tuner/demodulator differs) the batch build size is orders of magnitude different. DTT boxes are often built in batches of 250,000 units with agreements in place to produce more than 1,000,000 units. That produces massive purchasing power and economy of scale. By contrast both KV/SV boxes are likely built in batches of 5,000-10,000 units with no real agreements for future production (so done as one-off runs). This generally makes their production costs at least 4-5x that of a similar spec DTT boxes. Unfortunately, thats just the way things work in manufacturing as many people can likely tell you.

Actual manufacturing cost for both KV/SV is likely very similar - I'd guess (its an informed guess as I have experience of manufacturing electronic products) its £40-£55. The KV may be marginally more expensive (£5) as they use a more specialist tuner assembly but otherwise the two are nearly identical in terms of components. There may also be differences in costs depending on where the two are asssembled (I have no direct knowledge of that although I can guess)

I have no idea what you were paying for A750/A780 units pre/post N3 so cant really comment. I'd expect the 780 to be around £15 more expensive simply because it has the extra facility for networking (a guess based on previous experience with network/non-network items)

However many boxes have actually been sold, there has been a considerable amount of cash made, so please don't try and tell me that Kryptview is run by a Philanthropic organization - they are a business just like Starview and they are both in it for the money and given the box prices, I suspect that KV have made a lot more than SV.

Obviously substantial sums have been made but I dont think its as much as some of the figures bandied around. For both boxes, as well as manufacturing costs there are also transport costs and import costs and thats before you start adding distributer and other 'middleman' costs. As we all know, these extra costs build up very quickly indeed. Profit isn't necessarily all concentrated in one place, on the contrary, I suspect both KV and SV main parties actually make relatively small profits per box - maybe £20 per box. For 30,000 or so boxes thats only around £600k, far less than the £Millions i've seen quoted elsewhere.

As for KV being Philanthropic i'm not sure I actually claimed that. Of course they are in it to make money. My claim is that the KV CS network is effectively independant (but also symbiotically co-dependant in that obviously one cant exist without the other) of the KV manufacturer/importer and that the KV CS network itself is run in a non-profit making way. I'm sure they have costs (obviously they do) and I'd guess that at least a part of those costs are met by the KV manufacturers but, as best as I can ascertain, the only requirement for that support is the server guys keep on doing whatever it is that they are doing.

Profits, as i've said above, are likely to be very similar for both ventures. KV costs slightly more but SV have sold slightly more.

[lincsat]

Originally Posted by TheCoder

I guess I can claim the moon is made out of green cheese then because that would make as much sense as the above jibberish !

SV, 30,000 boxes seems about right.
KV, 25,000 boxes seems about right

The 25:1 is just idiocy. Take my above numbers as being approximately correct give or take 20% from each. SV was marginally more popular due to its original purchase price being lower.

I have never made the claim of 25,000 SV boxes sold or 17,000 in stock, as stated, these are claims and rumors made by (I suspect) KV supporters.

As an independent seller of both SV and KV boxes, my sales and purchase enquiries have been in that ratio, that I do know for a fact, I have spoken to another couple of independent dealers who report similar ratio's - and no I am not putting up my accounts for you to check.

I'm sure initially the server restart was to sell the 17,000 boxes. I'm also guessing that strategy has now been re-thought as it would be pointless for them to start a payserver system otherwise. The flog-it and scarper scenario only made sense when the server was 'free' !

Now you are claiming there are 17,000 SV boxes in stock, so is that jibberish or not then!

Its difficult to compare DTT boxes (or even Sat) with Cable boxes. Although they contain many of the same components (basically only the tuner/demodulator differs) the batch build size is orders of magnitude different. DTT boxes are often built in batches of 250,000 units with agreements in place to produce more than 1,000,000 units. That produces massive purchasing power and economy of scale. By contrast both KV/SV boxes are likely built in batches of 5,000-10,000 units with no real agreements for future production (so done as one-off runs). This generally makes their production costs at least 4-5x that of a similar spec DTT boxes. Unfortunately, thats just the way things work in manufacturing as many people can likely tell you.

This I agree with, I do not know the details of production of each box, all you can compare is similar specified products (albeit a different platform) and estimate from there

Actual manufacturing cost for both KV/SV is likely very similar - I'd guess (its an informed guess as I have experience of manufacturing electronic products) its £40-£55. The KV may be marginally more expensive (£5) as they use a more specialist tuner assembly but otherwise the two are nearly identical in terms of components. There may also be differences in costs depending on where the two are asssembled (I have no direct knowledge of that although I can guess)

With the SV box being better specified, (USB, PVR, UHF Modulator), I would expect them to be more expensive. The similar specified Freeview (DTT) product would retail for maybe £10-£20 more. The actual manufacturing (Gate Price) I would estimate at considerably below £40-£55 for both.

I have no idea what you were paying for A750/A780 units pre/post N3 so cant really comment. I'd expect the 780 to be around £15 more expensive simply because it has the extra facility for networking (a guess based on previous experience with network/non-network items)

I would guess around £10-£15 at the Wholesale level

Obviously substantial sums have been made but I dont think its as much as some of the figures bandied around. For both boxes, as well as manufacturing costs there are also transport costs and import costs and thats before you start adding distributer and other 'middleman' costs. As we all know, these extra costs build up very quickly indeed. Profit isn't necessarily all concentrated in one place, on the contrary, I suspect both KV and SV main parties actually make relatively small profits per box - maybe £20 per box. For 30,000 or so boxes thats only around £600k, far less than the £Millions i've seen quoted elsewhere.

There certainly are middlemen, I totally agree with that, but I would think the main importers/distributors would have made considerably more than £20 per unit, with KV making maybe double what SV made per unit.

It was stated when Rayyonics was raided/closed that they had made several millions from Eurovox boxes at that time. Retail prices were lower then and I suspect manufacturing was not proportionally lower, so much smaller margins. There also seemed to be more middlemen too.

As for KV being Philanthropic i'm not sure I actually claimed that. Of course they are in it to make money. My claim is that the KV CS network is effectively independant (but also symbiotically co-dependant in that obviously one cant exist without the other) of the KV manufacturer/importer and that the KV CS network itself is run in a non-profit making way. I'm sure they have costs (obviously they do) and I'd guess that at least a part of those costs are met by the KV manufacturers but, as best as I can ascertain, the only requirement for that support is the server guys keep on doing whatever it is that they are doing.

Profits, as i've said above, are likely to be very similar for both ventures. KV costs slightly more but SV have sold slightly more.

With that argument, You could also say that the initial SV server was non-profit then as all the money was made on box sales rather than the server access. I have no idea on the setup/running costs of the new SV server, but AFAIK, they have not taken any payments yet, so at this time are they still non-profit.

I have continually said that IMO, there is little between these 2 companies. The suggestion that KV=good, not interested in profit and SV=bad, greedy and only interested in profit is total rubbish.

[Sloopy]

Originally Posted by TheCoder

I guess I can claim the moon is made out of green cheese then because that would make as much sense as the above jibberish !

You mean the moon isn't made out of green cheese ? Thats news to me!

[clio1]

Originally Posted by lincsat

I have continually said that IMO, there is little between these 2 companies. The suggestion that KV=good, not interested in profit and SV=bad, greedy and only interested in profit is total rubbish.

Starview Products to date

Starview boxes we had 7 of them to date 1 a year ( Sv 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 )

Starview Combo Dont work on cable side any more

Euroview Dont work anymore

DDigital Duo Dont work anymore

Kryptview Products to date

Krypt 700 ok this was not capable of been upgraded

Krypt 750 This box works with iconnect

Krypt 780 This box works

Dw HD No longer supported due to Manufacturer no longer making or supplying

So we have 10 Sv products which of all of them about 2% are still working connected to server, others that want the 6 / 7 sorted have to pay for the service by sub which you could now class as another box a year for life, which has not even been set up, so they jumped from 0 to 2 and missed 1 by not setting up paypal well thats another fecking mess is it not.

So now we have 4 kv boxes which 2 are still running and all are connected for FREE!!!!!!! "NO SUB"

Where do you put the logic there, and yes i know Sv 1to 5 where pre N3 so was the Kv 700 and the A750, the 750 still works and still supported, Kv also did not bring a new box out every year like Sv did, Sv also dropped there support each time a new box came about, and left certain persons to fix the boxes so people would not be ripped off, Kv have still supported theirs apart from the 2 above which is beyond their control.

[unadkat]

I have to agree with Clio here and I must say he is 101% correct!!!!

[G77]

i am now 101% sick of cable. heh. i never thought the day would come where i said that....

G77 is now FTA only! heh